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How To Create Engagements That Actually Lead To Sales With Kent Lewis | FSS08
Welcome to the Facebook Sales Secrets podcast with me, your host, Steven MacDonald, CEO of LeadKlozer. This podcast is dedicated to helping individuals or businesses achieve greater success through the power of Facebook. Listen in as we discuss everything about Facebook marketing, from ad campaigns to lead generation.
In today’s episode, I interview Kent Lewis, Founder and President of Anvil Media, a widely successful digital marketing agency based in the US. In terms of digital marketing experience, Kent comes second to none, and much like our beloved comic book hero Superman, this “Kent” helps the people by sharing his knowledge on Creating Engagements That Actually Lead To Sales.
[2:07] What does “Total Engagement” mean in terms of advertising?
[8:54] Personal engagement versus automated engagement.
[15:26] The downside of automation in Facebook marketing.
[19:09] How total engagement affects Facebook ads.
[25:06] Best practices for call-to-actions.
[28:16] Kent’s number one tip to Facebook marketers.
If there was one thing that I’m going to say about what you’re about ready to learn on this podcast is that it’s all about the engagement. It’s all about building like, know, and trust. And it’s all about how you do that with the relationships that you’re starting through your Facebook ads. So stay tuned.
As a small reminder to my incredible audience, please leave me a review and hit that subscribe button. Your support helps this podcast get into more ears. Thanks in advance.
You’re listening to the Facebook Sales Secrets podcast hosted by Steve MacDonald from LeadKlozer, where we interview digital agency owners on their insider secrets to the successes they create for their clients through the Facebook marketing ecosystem. Tune in for the cutting edge tips, tricks, nuances and tools that will take your Facebook campaigns to the next level. Now, here’s your host, Steve MacDonald.
Welcome everybody to the Facebook Sales Secrets podcast. I’m Steve MacDonald, CEO and founder of LeadKlozer. And we’ve got an incredible opportunity to talk with our guest today, Kent Lewis, from Anvil, which is a digital marketing agency. And Kent has been in the industry for the last couple of decades, lived through so much, learned so much that we’re going to tap in today. So, Kent, welcome to the podcast.
It’s a pleasure to be on your show. Thank you very much for having me.
What we wanted to talk about today is you talk about the idea of Facebook as being the gorilla in the room, right? You can’t ignore and kind of like an ATM machine in terms of, you know, creating new relationships, new leads. But we all know that it takes somewhere between six and eight touch points to build that like, know, and trust to get a new sale. And so you have a perspective on, what you, call Total Engagement. And maybe you could kind of start out and tell us all Facebook marketers here, what total engagement means in your world?
Sure. So little, quick background. I’ve been in digital since ’96. So a couple months after Al Gore invented the internet. I was there. And then I have been evolving from, originally, my career in high-tech PR into SEO because in ’96, there were 14 search engines, none of them were Google, there were only limited banner ads. The first banner ads on the internet were porn. I didn’t get on that train, or I would have been retired by now. But side note, so, what I, to me total engagement means is having evolved from SEO to organic social back when it was discussion groups, and bulletin boards, and threaded forums into more robust platforms like Facebook, and then adding on layers of more and more complex advertising over the top streaming, real time bidding programmatic, outside of just banner ads and search ads, which is what our bread and butter has been the last 20 years of Anvil, is that I’ve learned that you know, it’s funny you say six to eight touch points for a consumer brand. That’s true for a business, a business or a tech brand. That might be, it may, it’s double that, roughly it might be 10 to 12 touch points. And well Facebook is unanimously known to be the de facto location to have, to start or evolve conversations with prospects and customers. For consumers, it does work for b2b, not nearly as well as LinkedIn. But you know, everybody, whether you have a b2b hat on during the day, you still have a certain personal hat on at night, or during lunch or when you’re supposed to be working and you just want to take a break. So Facebook is, has gone literally at Anvil, it’s gone from 0% of our advertising five years ago or negligible amount, to 50 to 80% of our ad budgets for our clients. As a digital agency, where 60% of what we do is advertising. It really is toe-to-toe with Google. There are some subtle differences in the advertising in particular. But back to your question about total engagement, we’ve learned over the last 20 something years that people start their journey online, roughly half or more will go to Google. The other half if you’re looking for a consumer product, you’re looking on Amazon for product searches. And if you’re looking for ideas or verified validation, you might go to Instagram or Facebook, has a huge market share. So our job as digital marketers is to get, whether you’re in house or an agency like us, is to make sure that wherever people are starting their journey, that your brand is there, our clients brands are right there. And ideally it’s totally the right message at the right time in the right form factor. So for instance, when I see a long form video on Facebook, to me that’s over 10 seconds, 20 seconds. Literally, I get very agitated. I don’t want, like, especially if it’s the passive goofy stuff. On YouTube, I will wait, you know, a minute for a story to build, maybe even five. But on Facebook, you got 10 to 30 seconds, you have less on Instagram, and in vine, couldn’t make it over the time of six seconds. And you know, our attention span is around eight seconds. So we have to capture the right, you know, the right form factor, the right channel at the right time. And total engagement means, no matter where they toggle to, at what point there’s a seamless experience. So by definition, that’s omni-channel marketing, we call it total engagement, not just because that sounds better. But omni-channel, see, is about delivering the right seamless message at the right time. But I think it’s missing that overall goal of engagement, right? So, you’re so, it’s an unwritten implied benefit to omni-channel. But to us, we were committing to that engagement. So that does challenge to have relevant calls to action at whatever stage in the buying cycle in the funnel. And you know, Facebook is great at awareness, it’s pretty good at that interest stage, it’s not very good at the bottom of the funnel. And Google’s kind of the opposite, you can do awareness. But when you’re ready to buy that product, and you’re searching on Google for pricing or comparison, it’s really good at that last mile. So where Facebook does better in total engagement on consumer brands, where there’s some sort of ecommerce shopping experience, or higher up in the funnel might be pulling or using some of the Facebook or other plug in features to get information from those folks. Those it can work well for that. But a lot of brands aren’t as sophisticated in smaller business, SMBs are just going to simply need to get the Facebook users to their website. So hence the mention of Facebook being more of an ATM in my view. I was asked 10 years ago about Facebook. And I was sitting on a panel next to the senior social media strategist for Intel. Intel’s in our backyard in Oregon. And he was like Facebook is the sun, and blah, blah, blah, and all these other platforms or whatever I was like, “No, Facebook is Uranus.” And, you know, your website is the sun, it’s the center of the universe, it is unchanging power supply, because you control every aspect of your website. All I control on Facebook is the posts I put up, and occasionally Facebook will control those, and information about my business. It is, they wholly, you know, you may own the content you post but they control how it’s fed and who sees it. And that’s the tragedy of Facebook. And with all the fake news filters and all the political issues and brand safety issues, this is a major issue. So total engagement marketing gets harder every day, particularly, on Facebook, with the echo chamber effect. But we still know it’s a central part, particularly for consumer brands. So we make sure our clients are there having a discussion, I’ll kick it back to you before I talk about the more details on the “how.”
Well. So here’s one thing that’s interesting. So you just said 60-80% of your ad budgets now are, over the last five years transitioned on to Facebook, and you talk about total engagement. So as marketers, we we want to have engagement all happen automatically, like the perfect world is we actually never have to talk to anybody, right? You just put everything on autopilot. Where, you know, I was at the last conference before COVID hit and everything, it was the digital marketer conference and Ryan Deiss is up there and saying, you know, for b2b and b2c, you know, how many of you want to have a conversation in order to close a sale? At least 70% of the hands in the room went up. When you talk about engagement? How much do you guys focus on the personal engagement versus kind of the automated touch points, and the retargeting and the chat bots, and the, where’s the line in the sand there? From your perspective.
A fantastic question not enough marketers or brands are asking today, is that the goal is to push towards full automation with AI and machine learning where the chat bots, you can’t even tell they’re not human. I was talking with a fellow, a peer of ours, that’s in the marketing space. And he’s switched to client side to build his own product and his assistant, who he’s copied me on all the email threads she was, he’s like, she’ll schedule a meeting and she’d schedule a meeting with me. And after a month of back and forth, he said did you notice she’s a bot and I’m like, “what?” So you know, you fooled me. But now I’m like, concerned and confused. So we know that the chatbots can be powerful. We know all of this, all this these tools at our disposal with omni-channel sales and marketing automation for the b2b side of things that’s moving into consumer side are very, very powerful. But my answer to my clients is, I put my Seth Godin hat on, you know, what, you know, what is the ultimate end goal is to have a personal relationship and to do that you have to have a personal communication. So I’ll put it this way, I have over 20,000 connections on LinkedIn. That’s important because that’s my channel to market and network, right, other businesses. And despite all the access to all these wonderfully automated tools, all of my outreach on LinkedIn is completely manual. I don’t automate any of it. And that’s because, you know, the chance for failure isn’t that much bigger, but it’s inauthentic to who Adnil is. So despite all the tools at our disposal, across all our client platforms that were the platforms we use for our clients, we still tend to go to manual interaction, and advise our clients when possible. It’s better to use the tools to automate general outreach. But as soon as you get down the funnel, the goal is to be more and more personal. And I just got a compliment right before this email, right before this podcast, it was an email from a gal I’m still involved with my alma mater, Western Washington University up in, in Bellingham, Washington, and I’m on this career readiness, you know, I’m helping college graduates get ready for actual life and work in a job. And she said, you know, you are so responsive, you’re so prompt, you’re so appreciative, because all I do is say thank you quickly to things she sends. And it’s really what it is, is my disability is I’m OCD, I can’t stand to not get back to people. She greatly appreciated that. Now, I could automate that. But then she’d be sending this heartfelt note to a bot and that would just crush my soul. So to your question, I think automation has its place for high volume, low sophistication consumable products and brands that where the client doesn’t expect it. If Ferrari uses a chatbot, they’ve lost the game, in my mind. Even if it’s the world’s best chatbot, that is not, hand-built cars, and chatbots do not go hand in hand. So I agree with Seth Godin, and one of his old books, he’s like, if brands like Verizon, to single out my carrier, were to spend as much on customer service reps, as they do on the IVR system that automates all that, they’d have better-trained, happier customer service reps that give you a positive experience, thus creating marketing opportunities instead of complaints. And so I, that’s where I challenge my brands, the clients I work with is spend money in the right place so that the consumer feels loved and appreciated. And these tools are only enablers, they’re not the solution. I hate the word solution. I’ve been working in b2b too long. Even though majority of our consumer-facing is solution is a dead, is a stop word in our agency. It is, the client, the end user has to feel appreciated. So the seamlessness, the technology can aid that but at some point a human has to come in and say thank you for building relationship with us. How can I help you? Or here’s what you asked for. You want to set up a time to talk? And if they want to say no, please let me continue my automated world. Like I get annoyed when I have to go into a bank and talk to a teller that wastes my time if the ATM is broken, I get so annoyed. So. But that’s the context of a banking experience. So every industry is slightly different. We try to program accordingly.
Well, I love the way that you kind of summed it up was, the farther you get down into the funnel, the more personalized the conversation should be, right? That’s just a good way of kind of, I think thinking about this. I had a client literally last week, she does Facebook ads that are you know, to start a messenger conversation, so the messenger objective, and she has a free trial for her online fitness solutions. And I asked her, I said, Why do you do the messenger conversations? I thought I knew the answer, right? And why don’t you just put a link directly over to sign up for the free trial. And I said, and she said I wouldn’t get any free trials. And she said, but if I put the conversation, then people are willing to and she said I’m not getting on a phone call for a half hour, right? You know, I’m, I’m having a conversation. And I’m able to relate as a human, right? And she said, and then the conversions, you know, sore. But if I just said, here’s this great service, sign up for the trial, she put the conversation as an option in the middle of that. And she gets incredible leads that way. But these are people that are ready for the conversation. They’ve had the touch points, they’ve had the they know kind of what the opportunity is. But to push them over the edge. They want to talk to somebody personally. Yeah, I think that from from Seth, from Ryan Deiss. What he’s saying, what you’re saying, what we’re all learning, we know there’s a role for automation. Retargeting is a form of automation in itself, right? hugely important, but what I think we forget as marketers is there is a equally as important superpower. And that is the personal conversation. I mean, I’m talking to agencies some of the biggest in the world. That are hiring conversationalist, because it’s about creating the conversation. In conversation also, you know, tells Facebook in the algorithm that this ad is more, you know, important than Costco and things like that. But I didn’t want to derail you, but I loved, I loved your notion of the lower you go in the funnel as you’re going down the goal of getting more personalized, shouldn’t be lost.
Let me let me make a point about automation, you brought something really important. And that’s retargeting being a form of automation. And it absolutely is. My POV, which my entire team may not share with me is don’t assume that retargeting is working, assume that it is not working. Here’s what I mean, when I shop for, let’s say some negligee for my wife, and she, you know, that’s an only an example because she would not want me to do that is then suddenly I get all these ads from Victoria’s Secret words, clearly, I’m not the I’m not the end user, right? I’m just the buyer. So and I, that’s when you know, when it’s not working. And it’s really obviously hard to subtly know the difference. But you know, it’s a male. And it’s not J. Edgar Hoover, they’re probably not buying it for themselves, whatever the case. So you have to be aware and assume so I think my point to close out this idea is that automation is very powerful, but is very deadly, use at your own risk, like a handgun, meaning, oftentimes, it’s used against you. So for the high touch luxury brands, it’s very, very dangerous. I am not going to buy anything Gucci for anything other than maybe my wife if she even cared, and then I’m going to see Gucci ads, or I’m going to be completely turned off by that. So especially from brands I got, I don’t care about Ford, I don’t care about McDonald’s. So automation is a loaded weapon. And I think a lot of brands misfire it, that to your to your point, our collective point is up here high up when it’s just really broad terms, but by the time it gets down here, it should be very personalized and one on one, in fact, I was just talking before this with a buddy of mine who runs an agency in the UK. And he’s training one of his team members on small talk, right, brought in some curriculum and some learning and an expert for her. Because the power they call that a soft skill perhaps is some of my team in the past want to get straight to the, you know, here’s what I did for you, here’s how I move the needles, the the elevate of our mantra is delight, then elevate the lighting is the small talk the connectivity, the thing we need our to do help our clients do with their customers, the elevators just getting the actual work done and generating a return. And I found that you’re typically better one or the other. So typically, I mean, somebody’s missing, deployed, if they’re in a role where small talk is important. But man, is it typically extremely invaluable. It’s very rare. The client doesn’t want to get to know you as a human. And once they do you have a far more leeway in how you deliver. Again, I’m also I’m really good at sidetracking, apologize.
No, that’s great. This is, this is the goal here, right? Is to bring out the opportunities that are being missed, right? Because if Facebook with all of us is the majority of the advertising that we’re doing, right? That’s, I think that’s the audience that’s here. And that’s the majority of digital, you know, social media marketers. And the idea of thinking about how you treat the leads you create from your initial ads and retargeting how you treat them in a very automated or personalized because the automation gets less effective as you go down the funnel. That’s the other way to think about, right? Retargeting doesn’t work really well right at the bottom, right? That’s more of a mass, you know, audience strategy of everybody who hit my pricing page or you know, everybody who registered for my webinar or you know, things like that. So, let’s get back on track though. You were talking about though, you know, total engagement. And so go ahead.
So what I want to say was you know, relating to Facebook which is you know, your primary focus of your podcasts and your audience expectations is that the total engagement example that I see Facebook, so take a consumer grant we have a 35 clients but one of them is a fitness brand you mentioned one earlier and are thankfully our client did relatively well because they only do home gym equipment, and they had just launched three months before COVID hit that allows people to do their own training, so think peloton on a budget not specific to bikes, you know, other fitness equipment. And so they in fact, other than factories being shut down in China where their product is manufactured. You know, we pent up a huge demand and we had to turn off our ads until the shipments came over. Good problem to have but when I think about it, fitness brand like our client, I think about, okay, where am I going for advice where my active and passive? So my career has been active search, you know, search ads and SEO people are looking for a solution to a problem using keywords, right? That’s what I know best. And then Facebook came along with a very excellent passive advertising platform where I am wasting, effectively, wasting time and being arguably very well misinformed by Russian trolls and whoever else and my uncle about whatever topic. But meanwhile, I’m seeing these ads and interesting I don’t, I am, have a high degree of confidence. I’ve never clicked on a Facebook ad, but I might be lying to myself, much like people don’t ever admit, clicking on a search ad on Google, get billions of people do so or billions of times. So the way I’m looking at total engagement on Facebook is I typically go to Facebook, with a passive, with a passive mindset for entertainment. And it’s, to me, it’s much less than percent of the time 20-30% where I go in actively looking for something and Facebook because I, we’ve talked earlier before this recording of how we have, at least I’ll speak for myself distrust for the platform. And I don’t like a lot of what they’re doing. But it’s unfortunately become too valuable, too big to fail as almost, even if it does get broken up. So you come in with either mindset and you’re checking out your, your favorite group, you’re checking out your friend’s feeds, which is really mostly it’s your feed, and then whatever Facebook crafted, and you’re gonna see some ads mixed in with the content you’re looking for. And if you’re lucky, as a brand, they like your ad and click on it, and then boom, you’ve got them. So what does that mean, it’s, it’s typically come to our page and do something, some apps or plugins, you can actually get a commerce transaction or capture an email, you know, whether it’s a contest or promotion. But most of the time, it’s in the, your passive organic feed is creating great content that gets into their feed, whether it’s boosted or naturally occurring. And they click and they go to your website, and they read an article or you know, a paper or whatever it is, sign up for a webinar. But I believe that the center that, the solar system is your website that you control, because you don’t directly control Facebook, whether you own the content or not. They own the relationship much like Amazon owns the relationship, no matter how many products you sell through Amazon, they still control that relationship. And it’s really hard to wrestle it away from Amazon by design. So you’ve, you’ve gone to the, they’ve gone to your website to do something, now you’ve got them, you’ve got them in your email system, your marketing automation, you can start dripping them information. And as we talked about, the goal is to make it as personal as possible. So once they’re back on Facebook, you know, you’ve encouraged them to like your page, you know, to follow you, and they start to see your feeds more often. And they are now signed up for some sort of information. So they’re getting your emails, then there’s the I’m out on the internet, and I’m not on Facebook or your website. But now I see the ads through retargeting out on CNN or Fox or wherever. And then I’m out on some, you know, this, you know, a TikTok or some evolving platform. Next thing you know, I’m seeing it out there. And I guess what I’ve liked most about digital marketing over the years is that you don’t have to be a big company to look really huge, right? You just have to be very, very smart and use these platforms well. So that you might be geo targeting or geo fencing, a one mile radius of an intense group of people, and they think you are everywhere through active search, organic, paid ads, retargeting over the top streaming, your even sponsoring a podcast that you know, has a high listenership in that area. And they think you’re as big as IBM or Microsoft or Facebook, even when you’re a two-person company. It’s hard to do well, hence, us agency folks can make a living doing it. But it really does. It’s possible. And that’s why I like about the concept of total engagement is every message we put out should have some engaging, relevant, I’m building relationship and I’m inclined to do something, not every engagement should be an ask. But more than not, because the biggest miss I’ve seen with my clients is not making a creating a clear, consistent call to action relevant to that stage in their journey relative to that platform. Because the clients, whether they’re really large corporations that are just too fractionalized to all talk to each other, which we have a couple of those clients and they’re doing their best but it’s hard or they’re too small, the startup and don’t have the funds or the bandwidth, one person wearing many hats, there’s always going to be a challenge with a company of any size or sophistication in creating a total engagement marketing. That includes Facebook slash Instagram as a key channel.
So you mentioned something there that most of the time, all of these touch points these engagements should have some kind of a call to action, but you’re not advocating go buy, right? Go sign up, like the call to action. can actually be a lot softer than that, but you’re looking for what in that call to action?
Well, I’ve found that again, I, often where, you know, 35% time it’s the b2b because the consumer side, it’s, I’ll answer that first is, if you’re, you know, they’re, may not be ready to buy if it’s a more complex product or a higher price point. So it’s, sign up for this, like that, share this, comment here, take this poll, here’s a discount code. And then you work your way up to, you know, buy now, and you might start with a buy now and then work your way down to, instead of discounting the price which may be appropriate for your brand more likely, it’s adding promotional elements and value adds. So you’re not diminishing or eroding your brand in the process. For b2b, it’s all about, you know, it’s the check out this white paper, take a demo, check out our webinar, and you have these building steps that can be b2b or b2c. But you need to know what those key steps are, you know, with one of my clients 15 years ago, we knew that 35 to 40% of the the technology prospects that looked at the software that’s in the in the security space, of the 40% of those that took the webinar, attended a webinar would be ready to purchase. There were 10 steps before that, and that was the second to last step, right, and then it’s a consultation or whatever it is. So if you don’t know that about your buyers, no matter how b2b or b2c you are, or you’re both, no matter how big your product is, in price point, or complexity, sales cycle may vary, touchpoints may vary. But you should know what all those key touch points are. Whether you’ve built out elaborate personas, my view is anything more than half a dozen personas is, unless you have dedicated teams to each persona, and then they’re all beautifully stitched together with a integrated team that’s all talking to each other, it’s a waste of time. I have the same view as a business owner, the last 20 something years is you should never have more than three core values. Because if nobody will remember it, especially our employees, and I can remember our core values. But I use to have, I used to have five and I couldn’t tell you, one, I couldn’t tell you more than two. So 10 years ago, I went down to three core values, and boy, that, it just makes everything easier. So I, that’s how I feel about total engagement is you should have a real clean sense of your three to five core buyers, and you’ve mapped the journey out for each of them, the customer journey, then you’ve you’ve mapped out those touch points, sometimes a whiteboard and stick and sticky notes is a great way to do it. Again, technology is only an enabler, it’s not the solution. It is, it allows you to have more of a direct relevant voice to the most number of people. But at some point, as we’ve talked about, you need to get down to that personal, Hi, how are you this is not a bot, I’m talking to you right now, a real person and watch them be blown away because the competitors are not taking that approach.
So I want to ask you a question to take the kind of the whole conversation here and a takeaway for our audience. If there was one thing in the decades of digital marketing, and you do it every single day for your clients that you wanted to leave us with as a recommendation. You know, we’re we’re bay-heavy Facebook marketers just like you. What would you say?
I’d say rather, I want to keep it relatively simple. Have one run-on sentence, I guess you could say is, technology is an enabler, not the solution. So use technology to streamline a customer journey and use it to measure the key touch points, you can continually refine and streamline that journey together. That would be it because I’ve seen too many, for 25 years, I’ve seen hundreds of technology players, some are, have been my clients, some have been my vendors, outlasted by somebody like me an agency, we’re one of the, probably, one of the oldest digital agencies in the Pacific Northwest, with over 20 years is that we take approach of our clients are humans, no matter who they’re talking to, they’re talking to other humans. And we don’t see, we are not pimping out a specific technology or a platform with our love or hate Facebook makes no difference. As long as it’s true. It’s proven to generate a relationship of trust that it leads to a sale and that everybody wins. And that’s really important to us. So that’s my long and short answer is that the companies that have not outlasted us, agencies relied too much on technology, among other who knows what other challenges they face. And the platform’s have relied too much on their platform being the end all be all for one aspect. And I think it’s it’s all stitched together. It’s all part of a bigger ecosystem. But if you don’t rely on technology at all, you can’t scale. So you have to just be very smart about how you use the technology and be very jaded about what these tools can really do.
Fantastic. Well Kent thank you very much for being on the podcast here, a wealth of information. And if anybody wants to get ahold of Kent, you can just go to Anvilmedia.com. And you can ask him about their services because this holistic approach, this total engagement, I’m 100% behind because without the engagements, you know, as agencies, we tend to like to say, look how many engagements we got for you as a client. But really, the goal isn’t to get just engagements for the sake of engagements and volume, it’s to get the right engagements with the right call to actions that move people down the funnel towards the sale. And that’s the total engagement strategy kind of in a nutshell is what I’ve been I’ve learned from you here today. So thank you. Thank you very much. We hope to have you back on the podcast soon.
Thank you for your time. Appreciate it. I’ll just remind everybody you know, beyond going to the website, we have a treasure trove of free information, webcasts, articles, white papers is follow me on Twitter, @kentjlewis or connect with me on LinkedIn. I’m not hard to find on on any of the socials. But thanks again for your time. I think this total engagement discussion should carry forth with with your other guests. I think it’s a it’s a really important concept. And, you know, again, I appreciate your time.
Fantastic. Thank you.
What an incredible conversation. We tend to try to think about Facebook in an isolated way. Sure we do retargeting, and we can do Google retargeting, things like that. But what we want is Facebook to do the lion’s share of the work for us, right? It would be the easier solution, you advertise and you get clients. But it doesn’t work that way. In a world where we need six to eight touch points, or as Kent said maybe even more on the b2b side, we need to think about how we’re taking the initial engagement, how we are creating a world Earth surrounding that lead with additional engagements. So that if you look like you’re everywhere, you’re this fantastic, huge presence, but also how you were creating those engagements, creating call to actions, and most importantly, getting more and more personalized, as those engagements move people lower in the funnel.
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